Brexit
- Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,027
13 December 2020 07:32366852Gary39 wrote:...move Dover TAP back up the hill away from Aycliffe..
I suspect that's a solution that isn't going to happen. If a TAP queue needs a roundabout at its head, then you would need a new one as presumably Court Wood reduces the queue capacity too much and risks fouling the A260 junction. Can't see a roundabout winning the funding stakes against such rivals as A2 dualling.(Not my real name.) - Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,856
13 December 2020 08:45366854Post 222 sue raises some real issues , here's a little more insight.
I'm the political front P Watkins wasn't my cup of tea
But he was one of the better leaders , and from all parties there were not many .
To even it up I think R Hansel was the best Labour leader and they had some poor ones .
I recall prior the a labour group meeting before going into a council meeting I chatted with p Watkins over a tea
When I went into the labour group meeting
Eileen rowbottom labour councillor interrupted the meeting to ask the group if they knew why I was a few mins late
She went on to say I had been talking to p Watkins
As though he was the devil lol
I did reply to say I would do it again , it's far better to know what the opposition party is thinking than going in blind
There's also the bit on seeing if there is common ground.
Bear this in mind with how cllr Rowbotham views Tories
Whilst on KCC I attended a group meeting where the labour whip wanted to remove a cllr from a committee
When I asked on what grounds the ship said a conservative had told him in the corridor !
Now would I believe another probably mischievous party person in an internal discipline matter ....no
But I didn't hear her kick up a fuss that day
Do without clear evidence I didn't support it!
At the end of the day I don't care if its Tory labour green indy who helps Dover to a brighter future
But it needs help and it needs parties working together .
I recall sitting in town hall on the stage in the cabinet as the labour group was proposing to close all the toilets prior to an election
I did say this is political suicide
But they still went for it.
And lost election
Without doubt in Coming years Labour had no chance of ever controlling KCC or DDC
And just about clings onto the parish town council
The sad thing is the conservatives are not that popular
But labour also has very little supportALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS - Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,002
13 December 2020 12:17366857ray hutstone wrote:The Tory party is now so far to the right...
This is a self-sustaining fantasy of the modern Left. Look behind, around and under the rhetoric to what the Tories actually do and you'll see it shares a directional position more or less in line with Labour. The Tories out-Blaired Blair in order to stay alive. Whether you want to call that left, right or extreme centre makes little difference. But the fact is there's but the thickness of a manifesto cover between them.
As far as Europe-the-political-entity is concerned, there's a long tradition of Labour scepticism not limited to Benn, Shore and Hoey (and Corbyn until he caved). That the modern Starmerite 'Left' see leaving the EU as a project of the 'Right' testifies to the shallowness of its political understanding, and is a major reason Labour cocked it up in December 2019.Pablo, Reginald Barrington, Jan Higgins and 1 more like thisPablo, Reginald Barrington, Jan Higgins and Captain Haddock like this'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus - Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,002
13 December 2020 14:21366864
Very good piece on the 1962 Lords debates in which Attlee joined Eden in arguing against the Conservative proposal to sign up to the CM.
Attlee: 'I have no prejudice in a Britain planned for the British by the British'.
'It is impossible for us to enter into these economic arrangements without being pulled, sooner or later, into a political association, which I do not think is desirable.'
https://thecritic.co.uk/clement-attlee-prophet-of-brexit/Bob Whysman likes this'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus - Bob Whysman
- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 1,932
13 December 2020 15:51366866Enoch Powell also had his views on this too. This is just one of his offerings:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/09/eu-enoch-powell-common-market-conservative-party
Chickens coming home to roost spring to mind.Do nothing and nothing happens. - Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,027
13 December 2020 16:07366868From the Mail, earlier today: "Boris Johnson has seized personal control of Britain's No Deal preparations as the deadline for historic talks with the EU expires today."
By Jove - great or what! Will, however, stock-pile the gin in case the outcome is just a smidge less than world-beating.(Not my real name.) - Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,002
13 December 2020 16:27366869Re post #5,234 (no, that's not a typo). Yes BW, the fact Barbara Castle, Peter Shore, Michael Foot and Jack Jones (I think Eric Heffer was on that side by then, too) shared a platform with Powell shows how fatuous it is to position it as a 'Right' issue.'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus - 13 December 2020 18:55366872Weird Granny Slater wrote:This is a self-sustaining fantasy of the modern Left. Look behind, around and under the rhetoric to what the Tories actually do and you'll see it shares a directional position more or less in line with Labour. The Tories out-Blaired Blair in order to stay alive. Whether you want to call that left, right or extreme centre makes little difference. But the fact is there's but the thickness of a manifesto cover between them.
As far as Europe-the-political-entity is concerned, there's a long tradition of Labour scepticism not limited to Benn, Shore and Hoey (and Corbyn until he caved). That the modern Starmerite 'Left' see leaving the EU as a project of the 'Right' testifies to the shallowness of its political understanding, and is a major reason Labour cocked it up in December 2019.
The only point you're making is that both left and right have opposed our integration into the European movement in varying degrees and at different times. I agree.
What you've ignored is that our recent drift away from Europe was as a result to a considerable extent to the influence of Farage, UKIP and their assorted rag, tag and bobtail followers like one time communist Claire Fox and current eminences grise like Munira Mirza and Ross Kempsell. Cameron's failure to control his party Eurosceptics (Major's 'bastards') was only the start of a progression away from the centre of the party. And if you think that was a movement to the left then you really are failing to grasp the facts.
You ignore the names that I mention as no longer welcome - Grieve, Gauke et al. All centrist politicians. Do you really think that the current party doesn't stand to the right of their political views? Oh please. The fact is that every Tory PM from MacMillan to Cameron has wanted the UK to be part of the EU single market with all its benefits and associated costs. So the current party does not stand to the right of these guys?
But Europe is not the only symptom of a shift to the right. Further evidence is the ushering in of a type of hybrid authoritarianism. This is characterised by a more centralised and often secretive form of government.
There are many examples of what Boris Johnson is doing to dismantle the checks and balances of Britain’s democracy. Illegally suspending parliament, rigging appointments to parliamentary committees, the use of decrees and fast-track laws to cut parliament out of the law-making process and forbidding scrutiny of all manner of laws are just some of the tactics being used. In addition, the government has undermined the country’s independent legal system, the Human Rights Act and is happy to flagrantly break international law in front of the world.
One of the most important freedoms democracy provides for is the right to protest. Even this is now at threat. Under the guise of Covid and using its own special powers – Priti Patel, the Home Secretary is now seeking to make it illegal for protesters to obstruct Parliament, the courts, and the distribution of newspapers or broadcast media in a way that prevents them exercising their democratic duties.
When asked about the proposed powers, Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove ominously said it is “important the police get the powers they need.”
Currently, the Public Order Act gives the power to prohibit protest marches which cause serious public disorder – but not any other form of protest. What this does is give unconditional authority and full discretionary powers to stop any protest whatsoever when it deems it convenient to do so.
I could go on but I expect I'd only be wasting more Sunday night time. I'll be branded as a rabid leftie on this forum come what may. I'm not. I've never been a member of any political party and prefer to judges issues separately wherever possible. - Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
13 December 2020 20:14366878come on keith, we all no why the toilets where closed, and was not labour who closed [just a thought] it was the miss use of them by the drunks and druggies.Jan Higgins likes this - Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,856
14 December 2020 04:53366885You really think so BrianALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS - Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
14 December 2020 05:44366888yes kieth - 14 December 2020 09:03366892Looks like a deal is going to be done now - finally!
- 14 December 2020 09:19366893The UK does not need a deal to go ,Why are we holding onto the EU tail for, no deal was needed when the UK.AND USA send 1000 of troops over there in the war ,then handed back France and the rest back to them and they did not have to pay a penny, But the UK had to pay back millions to the USA for the guns tanks ,ships we needed to win the war,infact it toke over 20years to pay back, why are we holding on to the EU tail they need us more then we need them. just walk away without no Deal ,and do not forget France said no many times when we first asked to join up with them ,it was not till we had paid back most of the cash we had from USA in war days they let us in.
- 14 December 2020 10:25366894Neil Moors wrote:Looks like a deal is going to be done now - finally!
Possibly but not guaranteed. Boris will have to swallow more pride yet. The Irish customs reversal in itself will not be enough to sway things. In any event, it will be a paper thin one. Disruption ahead come what may. - Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,002
14 December 2020 11:31366895ray hutstone wrote:Oh please.
Yes, my big sister used to try that one on me. It didn't work then either.
Your paragraphs 2 and 3 come right out of the fantasy: a limited grasp of political realities that plots political options on a simplistic L - R horizontal axis.
The 'hybrid authoritarianism' paragraphs only demonstrate this. The latest state power grab is fully endorsed by the majority of MPs in the HoC, including the 'Left' opposition. Plot that.
btw, in case you hadn't noticed, I've opposed it consistently, quite often to the sneering derision of yourself and other members. Plot that too.'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus - Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,797
14 December 2020 12:07366896ray hutstone wrote:Boris will have to swallow more pride yet. .
As the saying goes.....It takes two to Tango.....To reach an agreement the EU side will also have to swallow their pride, they have as much if not more to loose as we can trade wherever we like.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
------------------------------------------------------------------- - 14 December 2020 13:12366898Weird Granny Slater wrote:Yes, my big sister used to try that one on me. It didn't work then either.
Your paragraphs 2 and 3 come right out of the fantasy: a limited grasp of political realities that plots political options on a simplistic L - R horizontal axis.
The 'hybrid authoritarianism' paragraphs only demonstrate this. The latest state power grab is fully endorsed by the majority of MPs in the HoC, including the 'Left' opposition. Plot that.
btw, in case you hadn't noticed, I've opposed it consistently, quite often to the sneering derision of yourself and other members. Plot that too.
Might be a good idea to flounce out again, Grandad. You're clearly getting overwrought. Just don't forget your face mask. - 14 December 2020 13:13366899Jan Higgins wrote:As the saying goes.....It takes two to Tango.....To reach an agreement the EU side will also have to swallow their pride, they have as much if not more to loose as we can trade wherever we like.
An economy that is 8 times the size of ours will never have as much to lose as we do, Jan. I hate to disabuse but these are the hard facts, whatever laughing boy and co might want you to believe. - Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,797
14 December 2020 14:02366900Ray, we all know you think the EU are the bees knees but the majority of the voters disagreed maybe time to accept the UK will survive quite happily whether we get this agreement or not.
We British are a resilient lot.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
------------------------------------------------------------------- - 14 December 2020 15:13366901I'm sorry, Jan. This isn't personal but your argument is about as facile as our Grandad correspondent. I don't think the EU is the 'bees knees' as you like to put it. I did work for a bi-national company for many years and have spent working hours in Spain, Germany, Belgium, Holland and, of course, France. I have spent a working lifetime dealing with border controls, data transmission, and all aspects of the movement of goods and people from the UK to Europe and back again. Additionally, my wife is Anglo-Dutch and our son lives and works in Portugal. In short, I think I know Europe better than most. Certainly better than Dominic Raab who confessed to not even understanding Dover's importance as a port.
The EU has many faults. All of these could and should be addressed with the UK at its centre. As its most dominant player if you like. That is my stance. I get a lot of my influence not just from my career and current situation but as a 'war baby' whose parents gave a hell of a lot for European peace and realised that the days of empire were long one.
Yes - the majority of votes (by a wafer thin margin) agreed in 2016. They were lied to and misled throughout the campaign. We are now facing the reality as the 'sunlit uplands' metaphor fades by the minute. Yes - we are resilient. Now is the time to display that resilience by facing up to the fact that a bunch of grifters and charlatans sold us a false dawn. Sooner or later we will have to rejoin the EU. I doubt that we will ever enjoy the favourable terms that we have now.
