Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,295
Listening to the stuff coming from the Maybot today, we are still in full blown cake and eat it mode. I guess we couldn't really say much else - until such time as the hard work begins and there is an outbreak of reality.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
and the sad demise starts today,god help us.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
According to opinion polls the public are heavily in favour of a Referendum on the exit deal. I cannot see that happening as it is not a single issue with so many parts that some may like and not like, besides there will be no time to go back and renegotiate after March 2019.
Bob Whysman likes this
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,295
I think this would be a good idea. At the very least, people would be given a second chance, once in possession of detailed facts, to decide once and for all. From the Government's perspective, it could then, legitimately, claim to have done everything in its power to consult as widely as possible as both the public, and Parliament, would have had a final say.
Of course, the likes of John Redwood would be jumping up and down claiming foul, but not really, because you are simply using their own argument against them, that the people should decide. If people once again vote for Brexit, so be it; if they don't - well, such is life. At least it would be based on more than the shambolic debate last time around (from both sides).
The caveat to this is that, as Howard says, a fudge needs to be found that we can carry out without crashing out with no deal. I am sure that the EU will soon find a way to make that happen
Bob Whysman
- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 1,932
You're being optimistic Howard by stating that 'there will be no time to go back after March 2019.'
Brexit negotiations: David Davis says 'promising start' made
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40321271
I think the opinion polls are confusing a referendum with votes ........as in Eurovision Song Contest.
The entry from EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier's entry was:
David Davis countered with:
.........we haven't come anywhere in the Eurovision contest for years and it's not likely to change anytime soon!
Do nothing and nothing happens.
Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,027
Post 592: I disagree. The majority of people who were enfranchised for last year's referendum and who expressed a preference, voted to leave the EU - and did so in the face of as many dire warnings as there were alleged benefits. The ballot paper did not ask why the UK should leave or remain, but in effect most people put leaving as their top priority (ie. come what may). I cannot see large numbers of last year's leave voters being persuaded to change their mind by anything that has yet to be said, particularly in view of the erroneous statements still being uttered by many current and past MPs.
I saw IDS being interviewed by Channel 4 this evening and, perhaps reluctantly, I have to say that he appeared the most factually correct UK Brexit commentator I have yet heard. I noted his request for hard and soft Brexit to be defined for him went unanswered.
Guest 745, Paul M, Guest 1849 and
1 more like this
Guest 745, Paul M, Guest 1849 and John Buckley like this
(Not my real name.)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
As expected we have been sold out by agreeing a divorce bill before other matters are discussed despite legal experts telling us we are not liable, a bit like Dave and George paying out a few billion as a bonus payment to the EU a few years back after previously denying they would.
John Buckley likes this
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,856
Howard
I think this is the problem of what is a hard or soft brexit.
this particular question is now helping the remain camp to try to justify a second referendum
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Keith Sansum1 wrote:Howard
I think this is the problem of what is a hard or soft brexit.
this particular question is now helping the remain camp to try to justify a second referendum
Too late for any of that Keith, our negotiator has agreed that we will leave the single market and customs union, hard brexit is inevitable.
Guest 745- Registered: 27 Mar 2012
- Posts: 3,370
howard mcsweeney1 wrote:As expected we have been sold out by agreeing a divorce bill before other matters are discussed despite legal experts telling us we are not liable, a bit like Dave and George paying out a few billion as a bonus payment to the EU a few years back after previously denying they would.
rule number one in any contract, don't part with the cash until the contract is agreed.
maybe they should ask Mr Trump to handle the negotiation for them ,,lol,,
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
The bureaucrats never learn, now telling the Belgians who make the best tasting chips that they need to do things differently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/20/chips-are-down-for-belgian-frites-as-eu-acts-on-chemicalBob Whysman- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 1,932
It looks like one day of
nogotiations has been enough and the 2 year timetable was a bit exaggerated as they look like it has been settled already. The
nogotiaters exchanged presents by all accounts....the EU gave us their terms for Brexit and the UK gave in.
Anyway that's my understanding of it for what it's worth.
Time to stop speculating and move on.........
I've got to agree with Keith Bibby again........our
nogotiater has just one more question to ask before the UK finally caves in:
"How much do you want?"
John Buckley likes this
Do nothing and nothing happens.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
On the face of it the PM has offered to guarantee EU citizens full rights in the UK in exchange for the EU reciprocating, nothing new there but seems to have gone down badly with EU friends. I notice that this has come out before discussing the "divorce" bill.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-citizens-rights-theresa-may-residency-offer-stay-jam-brussels-summit-a7804051.htmlGuest 745- Registered: 27 Mar 2012
- Posts: 3,370
I would think that giving voting rights to 3.2 million EU Nasional's, will probably end all future conservative governments, and give us a one party state ??
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Keith Bibby wrote:I would think that giving voting rights to 3.2 million EU Nasional's, will probably end all future conservative governments, and give us a one party state ??
From what I understand the ones who would be interested in voting have a wide range of views, the Poles veering slightly to the Tories.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
I notice that anyone who has been here under 5 years has no guarantee of being able to stay which appears to be a major sticking point. I think a fairer way would be to use the date that Article 50 was invoked. The problem as I see it is that our side do not really want to leave the EU and they know that the public are now less enthusiastic on leaving.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40378913Guest 2060 likes this
John Buckley
- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
" they know that the public are now less enthusiastic on leaving"
Really? We might be told that by the media etc., no surprises there of course, but personally I know of absolutely nobody that has changed their mind that previously wanted "out". Perhaps I move in strange circles?
However, it already looks like the white flag has been collected from the cleaners and proudly waved for some obscure reason to our masters in Europe. And like with Scotland, whatever we offer will never be enough. I sometimes wonder whether this country is actually worth saving.
One way or another this government is finished and God help us with the alternative!
Bob Whysman, Paul M, Guest 1849 and
1 more like this
Bob Whysman, Paul M, Guest 1849 and Guest 2060 like this
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Just going by personal experience John, most of the people I converse with were fellow Leave voters and are now deflated like me. The momentum has been lost by leaving it a year to start negotiations leaving all that time for the best brains of 27 EU states to put their head together and punish us. The Remain voters who took to the streets initially are also deflated and accepting of the situation.
When I voted I never expected to see any difficulties with our present trading arrangements as we are a nett importer from the EU but Germany is quite happy to put many thousands of their car workers on the dole in order to punish us, France and Spain would suffer but don' t seem that bothered. In addition there is no doubt that many billions of taxpayers money will be given away when there is no remotely legal basis to do so.
Well before the Referendum we were told about all the great trade deals we can do with emerging economies which I agreed with, the BRIC countries are the immediate future, but nothing has emerged and I doubt whether anything has gone on behind the scenes.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
yep your right its all gone to pot,not even a leg to stand on.its going to end a broken Britain.bust beyond belief.
Bob Whysman likes this
John Buckley- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
Can't disagree with most of what you say Howard. I'm feeling deflated as well, not with how the EU are playing the game, that's expected of course, but with the usual gutless caving in to their demands as though we were a pathetic charity case fully dependent on their generosity to help us out. God almighty, is there no one in our government with a backbone?
If, as will probably happen, the EU will concede virtually bugger all, then why on earth give them a single penny in the "divorce" settlement? Whats to lose?
I may well be in a minority, but I still personally believe that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
It's an individual choice I know, but I would prefer to retain my pride and go through a few years of financial hardship rather than let those smug EU b******s think that they're getting one over on us!
Jan Higgins, Guest 2060, Guest 1849 and
1 more like this
Jan Higgins, Guest 2060, Guest 1849 and Reginald Barrington like this