Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,803
Just announced on the news that a deal on the money has been agreed, this is unconfirmed though so we can only hope this is true.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Courtesy of the Telegraph.
British and EU negotiators have reached a deal over the so-called ‘Brexit bill’, opening the door to a potential breakthrough in the talks this December, the Telegraph has learned.Sources on both sides confirmed that an agreement-in-principle has now been reached over the EU’s demand for a €60bn financial settlement ahead of a crucial lunch meeting next Monday between Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president. Two sources confirmed that the terms were agreed at a meeting in Brussels late last week after intense back-channel discussions led by Oliver Robbins, the UK’s chief Brexit negotiator.
The Telegraph understands that the final figure, which is deliberately being left open to interpretation, will be between €45bn and €55bn, depending on how each side calculates the output from an agreed methodology.
Although it remains true that ‘nothing is agreed until everything is agreed’, sources said the breakthrough on money effectively now leaves only two major obstacles to overcome in order to make progress when the European Council meets on December 14-15. These are defining the role of the European Court of Justice in governing the agreement on the rights of 3.2m EU expats in the UK after Brexit, and the continued row between London and Dublin over avoiding a return of a hard border in Northern Ireland. “The deal on the money is there; it’s now the ECJ question and Northern Ireland that are the outstanding issues ahead of the Council,” said a senior source involved in the negotiations.
The British offer on all three areas - money, citizens’ rights and Northern Ireland - is now expected to be delivered by Mrs May on December 4 in order to enable Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, to make his recommendation on ‘sufficient progress’. If Mr Barnier gives the green light, a meeting of EU ambassadors scheduled for December 6 will be used to draft guidelines for the December 14-15 European Council summit, with the European Parliament likely to vote on its own ‘sufficient rogress’ resolution on December 13.The precise size of the UK’s payment will not be calculated until the point of UK exit, and the Telegraph understands the EU side is discussing how to obscure the final bill in order to help Mrs May overcome political opposition from Brexiteers. The UK had already signalled a willingness to pay €40bn, but the Telegraph understands that Mrs May was forced to increase that offer during the course of the last week and has acceded to majority of the EU's demands. A third EU source with knowledge of the talks said the text of the deal would allow a “low figure” to be generated for the UK public, but that the final text of the deal would give the EU certainty it was looking for, which is in excess of €50bn.
A spokesman for the Department for Exiting the European Union said that “intensive talks” were continuing in Brussels ahead of next week’s meeting. “We are exploring how we can continue to build on recent momentum in the talks so that together we can move the negotiations on to the next phase and discuss our future partnership,” he said. Prior to the deal, senior EU negotiators told the Telegraph the UK would need to formally commit to honouring its share of EU pensions, outstanding loan liabilities and €250bn in outstanding spending commitments from the current 7-year budget cycle, due to be disbursed after 2020.
Although the EU has not demanded a final number, the Telegraph understands that it has pinned down the UK over its share of those commitments, leaving only limited room for manoeuvre.
The UK side will seek to massage down its total ‘bill’ by off-setting UK share of the European Investment Bank (EIB) capital and discounting payments that are not immediately due, such as Eurocrats’ pensions and potential EU loan defaults to Ukraine, Ireland and others.
EU sources have also argued that Mrs May’s original commitment in Florence to pay €20bn to cover UK contributions during a transition period in 2019 and 2020 would need to be increased. “Net contributions in these two years taken together are clearly above €20 billion,” the source added.
Despite the progress on the bill, the twin problems of the ECJ’s role and the Northern Irish border remain significant obstacles to progress. A fourth EU source said the deal on EU citizens’ rights was “85 per cent there”, but questions remained over whether the children of EU expats would retain family rights for life; the export of winter fuel allowance and streamlining the UK cost and bureaucracy for EU nationals applying for ‘settled status’.
John Buckley
- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
Good report from the Telegraph, but could have saved a lot of words by just reporting “ As expected, we’ve been shafted! “
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Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
the afore said papers where heavily edited wether on purpose or there was nothing there in the first place.
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Reginald Barrington
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,231
Less than 10% GDP, give it to them and be done with the leeches I say
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Arte et Marte
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,803
I hope what we have 'bought' is worth the cost, now we have to argue our case for the concessions.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
I have read that through a few times and can't see any benefit to us in paying out an extortionate sum. Nothing concrete in return and even if they agreed to continue the free trade area EU businesses would benefit more than ours.
Is traitors gate still in use?
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Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
being upgraded as I type.
PatrickS
- Location: Marine Parade, Dover
- Registered: 19 Sep 2015
- Posts: 448
If..... if the Telegraph report is correct we are heading for one of two outcomes:
1. The EU has shafted us good and proper, or
2. We are heading for a "no deal is better than a bad deal" (not my quote but you know whose)
Although I sincerely hope that the reported financial settlement agreed in principal is conditional on us reaching an acceptable deal on trade, ECJ and NI, I read into the tone of the report anything but. Promising money in order to reach an agreement where we can talk about talks on trade seems just slightly thin in substance and whiffs of concession for ........ what in return. Eh.... well nothing actually.
I trust I am wrong. So far I see little confidence in our negotiators to take the fight to the EU who are making all the running in the media battle, and likely the negotiating table as well.
It is about time the British Lion not only roars, but bites, and bites hard.
It's simple really - bite first, or be shot. We will see very shortly if there is any British resolve, true grit, left. It is just too an important issue for us, and for future generations, to get it wrong. Guy Fawkes might just as well have succeeded if we do.
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Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,295
So, the take home message form this; the monetary deal is done, it is far higher than the UK Government set out but rather than walk away, both sides have agreed to lie to the British public about the final figure. Fine, we are used to that.
I love the quote "only leaves two remaining areas to be resolved", when there were only three to start with. In a sense, the monetary deal was always far easier than anything else as it was simply a case of was it this much, or that much. Far harder is the Irish border issue and I am fascinated to see what solution might be for that.
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Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,003
howard mcsweeney1 wrote:Is traitors gate still in use?
I believe those in contempt of Parliament can be confined in the clocktower. At least that way, as the bells are presently silent, that poor chap Davis might get some sleep.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,939
I believe that Mr Kipling (who made remarkably good poems) had words to say on the matter.
http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_danegeld.htm"We are living in very strange times, and they are likely to get a lot stranger before we bottom out"
Dr. Hunter S Thompson
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,003
Surely that would be relevant only if our leaders had been 'Unready'. But that's not the case, is it: after all, they assured us they 'had a plan'.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
PatrickS- Location: Marine Parade, Dover
- Registered: 19 Sep 2015
- Posts: 448
Barmy Barnier's latest pop at us decries our lack of solidarity with the EU on security and intelligence in the wake of increased threats from terrorist groups.
We can no longer remain a member of EUROPOL he says because
"...... rather than stay shoulder to shoulder with the union, the British chose to be on their own again."
We have one of the most professional and effective Intelligence agencies going and have contributed to the fight against organised crime and terrorism far more than other EU Countries over the years and well before the EU was climbing into its nappies.
Barmy goes on to say " but (the UK) could still participate in EU-led operations."
Good of him. Who is cherry picking now I wonder?
Of course we wish to, and will continue to, contribute to the security of Europe (not just the EU) and TM has said so on many an occasion.
Good to see Barnier working so hard to get both sides together in the spirit of friendship and cooperation once again.
This is just his latest war of words against BREXIT with a somewhat unsubtle reference to supporting Jolly Junkers vision of an EU defence force to eventually overtake / replace NATO's role.
Perhaps we ought to get Capt Mainwaring to call out the Home Guard once again. Barnier - "stupid boy".
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mr Barnier, Bulgaria are in the chair from five weeks time and their Prime Minister has made it clear that it is important to keep the UK onside. That was before our betters sold us out mind you.
PatrickS likes this
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,803
Barnier must have the same intelligence level as Trump.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,803
The official figure has not been announced so that news report is pure guesswork and not worth reading.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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PatrickS- Location: Marine Parade, Dover
- Registered: 19 Sep 2015
- Posts: 448
For goodness sake.
When will both sides and the media wake up. This is not a divorce. We are leaving a Club - cancelling our subscription. Any future obligation is not something we should even be remotely thinking about, let alone considering.
Consider this. As a current net contributer to the EU budget we are being asked to continue with our payments before we can leave and even thereafter.
If another EU Country decides to leave and is a net recipient will the EU be obliged to pay them to leave?
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PatrickS- Location: Marine Parade, Dover
- Registered: 19 Sep 2015
- Posts: 448
Might be an almighty rush to the exit in that case - Greece, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Portugal to start with, even possibly Ireland.
Of course just like the exit demands on the UK these payments would have to go on and on for years after they left.
Remember EFTA.