Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,063
Neil Moors wrote:Is Labour shutting down debate on Israel? Big difference between that and closing down antisemitism.
All candidates for the Labour leadership accepted the BoD's 10 pledges, whch cedes control of Labour policy and process in this area to an external non-affiliated body. The pledges include a commitment to the IHRA definition and examples, which Labour had already accepted. The IHRA definition and examples are problematic in themselves, and come as near as dammit to equating criticism of Israel with antisemitism, so much so that its original drafter has warned against it. As far as I'm aware, only the Greens have not signed up to the IHRA, for the very reason that it closes down criticism. No other party allows the BoD to determine its policy. So the answer to your question, NM, is 'yes'.
Reginald Barrington likes this
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,915
Oh dear
Can we afford the Tories for another 25 years ?
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Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
yes, in your eyes keith.
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Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,915
Not just my view Brian
Unless your area is different to anywhere else
I don't know many people that are voting labour apart from the usual loyals
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Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,299
The deal between the UAE and Israel will be interesting. Early signs are that it was more about the UAE pandering to Trump rather than anything substantial in the region, but we'll wait and see.
I am a Labour voter, Keith. My own view is that those who get close to the internal workings of the party end up not seeing the wood for the tress from the voter perspective. Things are more promising that you might think....
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Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
agreed neil, keith is getting blinkerd in his old age.lol
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
In the current political climate how can anyone in their right mind claim to know what will happen for the next 25 years?
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,915
Neil
I respect your view and thankfully I do see things as a community activist in my area which can often be a guideline .
Many around the area who maybe some of whom would have voted labour are telling me they are just not going to vote .
So unless my area is different to rest of the UK which I suspect not to be the case labour won't be in for some time.
People used to vote in these safe seats for Tory or lab
But the last election showed more than any that this isn't happening any more.
In these uncertain times the Tories always tend to get there vote out
Labour struggles to.
I think Neil you are correct as a labour voter you may not be seeing that people are just not going to vote which will have a big impact on the labour vote
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Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,063
ray hutstone wrote:In the current political climate how can anyone in their right mind claim to know what will happen for the next 25 years?
8 months ago who'd have predicted that Labour, the unions and most of the left would support the public health tyranny of a government with a leader they'd previously regarded as a clown? I think KS has the firmer claim to rationality here.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,915
Weird/Ray
It is a very uncertain climate, one that people have switched off politics and more so labour.
Therefore labour has to rebuild now, we had the disaster of a general election where labour lost a lot of its safest seats.
As iv said before they will win some of those back
But where as before no one would think of returning a Tory MP in a labour stronghold
That's no longer the case .
Even in Dover the incoming and unknown in many circles actually increased her vote against what I was being told was labour would run her close.
The seat went from marginal to safe Tory
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Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,053
Weird Granny Slater wrote: I think KS has the firmer claim to rationality here.
KS or KS1?
(Not my real name.)
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,063
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, B; it hadn't occured to me. Definitely KS1. It would be a tired and emotional WGS who linked 'Starmer' with a 'firmer claim to rationality'.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,299
I see things lining up well for Labour. First, there is no way that anyone can claim the Government has handled the pandemic well so far, and the financial hardship is still to come (and it will hit like a sledge hammer). We have a no deal Brexit on the horizon (although I have previously said that I think a deal will be done) which will be a disaster, and of course we are in the middle of an education crisis. That's health, economy and education all in trouble. The government are also getting it in the neck on immigration from Farage, by way of a bonus.
So even if Labour does nothing at all, it eventually becomes the default option as the sitting government implodes under its own incompetence. But it's better than that, eventually the ghost of Corbyn will fade and Len McCluskey will be a thing of the past. Then its full steam ahead. I'm very positive
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,915
Neil
I appreciate your viewpoint , although I don't share it.
Taking your points........
With regard to the virus, without doubt this govt has made many errors.
But I'm unsure Labour would have done any better.
Would labour have even thought of laying out so much cash for workers etc.
Whilst i appreciate your view on Brexit , it's not what people in this area are saying and it won't be that easy for labour to convince those in the
Pro or anti camps to vote labour as they were so indecisive during the Brexit period.
Again on education Tories really struggling
But labour?
Anyone convinced labour would improve anything
On immigration I'm not convinced labour has any better policies than the Tories and it's the one issue that will keep a Tory MP in Dover.
It's your last point that I most disagree with.
Whilst the Tories don't look good , nor does Labour
For labour to get into number 10 all the lost followers have to return (unlikely)
Plus more in other areas of society .
So for me, labours out for some time
Whether or not the Tories implode
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Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,063
I find this 'Labour just has to sit back and enjoy the ride' line bafflingly naive. Labour is up to its neck in this calamity precisely because it showed cowardice when it had a duty to speak out. Ever since, it has whimperingly nuzzled at the edges of the various increasingly irrational policies that have succeeded the ur-irrationality of 'lockdown'. Imagine (if you can) de Pfeffel in his new black dress; and here's Starmer at the dance complimenting Al on the colour and fit, only suggesting the repositioning of that sequin and this tassel: in that grotesque image you have the measure of Labour's complicity. If you think they're getting out of this untainted you're off your tree.
But I can see how much of the left might be licking its deluded lips at the prospect; de Pfeffel's done the job of creating the precedents for the abolition of liberty, for government by decree, and for the state's micro-management of private and social life that's every authoritarian's wet dream.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,915
Weird
At last someone can see labour won't just walk back in.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 3,053
Weird Granny Slater wrote:I find this 'Labour just has to sit back and enjoy the ride' line bafflingly naive. Labour is up to its neck in this... If you think they're getting out of this untainted you're off your tree.
Have a little faith, pilgrim; there's another generation of voters coming down the track and due to arrive in time for the next GE, that's roughly a uni-course away. It could be that they will hold any administration as preferable to this current one (although how ballot papers will be counted remains to be seen).
Ross Miller likes this
(Not my real name.)
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,063
When the choice is limited to talentless fools who should be denied work anywhere, and certainly in parliament, then I'd hope most people would say 'to hell with you all' and delegitimise the bunch by mass abstention. That all these fools have an alma mater doesn't fill me with hope about those about to get one.
Anyway, B, GEs may be a thing of the past, like a day out at the cricket, Sunday morning at church, a cheap Prom on the balcony, and other mildly risky activities adults not so long ago were free to make their own minds up about.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,870
Weird Granny Slater wrote:When the choice is limited to talentless fools who should be denied work anywhere, and certainly in parliament, then I'd hope most people would say 'to hell with you all' and delegitimise the bunch by mass abstention. That all these fools have an alma mater doesn't fill me with hope about those about to get one.
That is why so many adults now no longer bother to vote unless there is a really important issue, like Brexit.
By relying solely on the young voters is a worry as most only think of what is best for them, they do not have enough life experience to understand what might best for the whole country.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,705
Sadly there is little evidence that older voters are any more altruistic or concerned with whats best for the country.
Most people vote on the basis of what meets their self interest whether that is to do with their pocket, their world view, their personal politics, religion etc.
Youth, after all, are our future and will be the ones who decide on and provide care in our dotage, deride them at your peril...
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