Yep, it's all over the news about MPs expenses and the ugly fallout it is causing. I'm sure none of you need an introduction to the situation. But what should be done?
What would happen to US LOT if we had our jobs / wages / salaries, then piled on thousands of pounds of claims for toilet seats, luxury plumbing gadgets, clothing, exclsuive furniture and digital equipment, porno channels, etc? Would we be:
1. Told it's all okay and is within the rules?
2. Fired from our jobs?
3. Reported to the police for fraud?
Surely we should issue ASBOs to these penny-pinching b******s who dip into the public purse like it's their own private pot of gold. As a small business owner, I work very hard and always struggle to balance cash flow in order to pay my tax bills, as I am sure many other small business owners do. We're in the dark guts of a recession, all struggling and feeling the pinch, watching the UK slide into a deep pit of debt and despair that our children will grow up to pay-off, finding all our daily bills climbing the walls while our income slides down the toilet, and yet we still pay our taxes and watch as it is used to fund the luxurious lifestyles of our greedy political masters.
I am SO glad this has all come to light and I would love to see heads roll, in particular Gordon Brown's who paid six grand to his brother for cleaning a flat! Was that fair / legal? Did he obtain competitive quotes? Is this "beyond reproach" as the rules state every claim must be?
I am SOOOOO angry at these expenses I could spit. As someone who is feeling the squeeze of recession, and someone who works hard to ensure my tax bills always get paid, I feel that this is nothing short of theft and betrayal on a grand scale. I accept that SOME expenses are essential, but anyone who says they haven't been joyriding the system for personal profit is either a liar or just plain deluded.
Sack them. Investigate EVERY PENNY. Get the police involved. Considering the horrid, harsh treatment WE get if our tax bills are late or even a few pence short, WE should be granted the exact same level of justice when they abuse that money which they so aggressively hound from us for the public purse.
B******ds !!!!!
(apologies to PaulB for the tone of this posting but I really am FURIOUS about this story simply because of the hardships that tax bills have caused me in the past four years)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
This problem is clearly more deep seated than anyone thought.
Its not just a few fiddling MPs, its the whole culture surrounding MP remuneration.
What says it all to me is what new MPs are apparently told by the Whips when they get elected. 'We cant pay you properly, the public wont accept a big pay rise, so make the most of your expenses'.
It a sad indictment of what our Parliament has become. There must be a massive reform but first.
1/ Those who can be identified as being fraudulent should face legal sanctions.
2/ Inland Revenue should investigate the property portfolios built up by MPs and see that Capital Gains Tax has been correctly applied. If not and if there has been deliberate tax evasion the MPs concerned should face exactly the same penalties as they expect to be applied to any of us.
3/ Where abuses are identified without anything illegal being done then those MPs should repay the money.
4/ Those MPs who are identified as breaking tax and/or other laws should be banned from standing again for parliament.
We then need a General Election but first the political parties will need time to re-select candidates to replace the MPs, as candidates, who are shown to have been the worse abusers of the system, certainly all those who face any kind of tax or criminal action.
After the General Election there must then be a massive reform. This should not just be about pay and expenses but must go much deeper than that. The number of MPs for instance should be reduced, not by a mere 10% as Cameron suggests but further, to 500, and it should be done within 4 years ready for the next election. Difficult timescale but not impossible.
This smaller number of MP should be well paid and have decent secretariates to enable them to deal with an increased case load. They should not receive a penny towards the secretariate themselves, instead they should get an allowance to cover office and salaries paid centrally. The second home allowances should go and be replaced with an accomodation allowance for those living outside the M25 if they do not already have accomodation in London. At most it should cover only the mortgage interest on a single London property and, as a matter of course, CGT should be payable on any gain when sold. The system should be totally transparent to prevent abuse.
They should then only get the same kind of business expenses anyone else might get from an employer with the same kind of checks involved.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the latest one, a millionaress, married to a multi millionaire.
the usual pitiful whine about "it all being within the rules".
earlier yesterday i was reading that the gap between rich and poor is worse than it was in the sixties.
do our representatives give a monkeys?
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
They don't seem to Howard, do they.
It's the contempt they hold us (the general public) in that annoys me; milking the system indeed and we're all the poor cows who are having our udders pulled.
I agree with Rick and Barry's financial answer is also good too.
How can you have these people in positions of responsiblility and authority ? talk about people who live in glass-houses.
People want to be MP's (the vast majority of them), not to help their community and country, not always for the power either, but to get their hands on the money; they have now brought themselves into disrespect.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i think that they start off with good intentions roger.
once in the closely knit world of parliament, they become immune to the world outside.
then they see the gains to be made and join in with the gravy train.
to my mind the main problem is that not many have really joined with real life before they get .
nearly all have been to university, many then work as research assistants to a politician and eventually get elected as councilors then mps.
how many have worked for a private employer or run a small business?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
There is a lot of truth in what you are saying there Howard.
We must, however, also remember that there are 646 MPs and it is still only a tiny minority who have been fingered for abuses. That is not to suggest that all the rest are whiter than white, I suspect that under the system they work under very few will emerge clean as a whistle, if any. That does not mean they are all crooks though. I still believe that there is a majority of essentially decent people in Parliament, accross all Parties, even if we can justifyable question aspects of their expenses.
The problem is of course that power does corrupt even the most well meaning of people. Parliament is a reflection of our society as a whole, the good, bad and ugly. What this scandal has shown is that there must be massive reform and the worse of the abusers should be punished. There must be no room for future generations of Parliamentarians to rob the taxpayers in this way.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
In parts I agree with Barryw (see it can be done!!)
As was said on TV yesterday MP's salaries(that doesn't include this expenses fiasco!!!) are top 10 earners in country, maybe even in top 5!!!
The salary itself you and I would probably like to see even a quarter of it!!!
As has been said this is ALL parties, and needs urgeent reform.
Are our Honorable members worth the salary alone?
As i'v posted on here before, all that has happened is the general public distrust ALL politicians, and in todays climate it will be very hard to justify the amounts of dosh being paid to MP's let alone all these expenses
I know Barryw will probably disagree with this bit, but i do feel strongly that MP's are grossly overpaid for what they do, and iu would like to see a review of just howe much MP's are paid and this beiung done not by someone in H.O.C. but get in an inpartial body to look at it.
Maybe they would even consider REDUCING the annual salary enjoyed while we all suffer. what do you think
In terms of performance review and value for money I do not think our MPs meet any kind of reasonable standard that justifies their inflated salaries, much less the outrageous amount of perks and backhanders that we subsidise. Their jobs do not appear to conform significantly with other comparable jobs - whatever they are! - and the need to evidence their performance and targets met. Almost everyone else is accountable to either a peer or a line manager and has to demonstrate competence.................and the point about most MPs not having had to fend for themselves in the real World is spot on!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Reality check.
In total 45 MPs from across the Parties have had queries raised on their expenses ranging from serious to trivial. This relates to the latest round of problems that have emerged. There are a few 'historical' exclusions and the list may well lengthen over the course of the next week.
To put that into perspective that is 45 out of 646. While all the others are not necessarily whiter than white it does show that we should not tar them all with the same brush.
This link shows an interesting graphic of all the cases so far and an assessment made by Westminster insiders of just how serious they consider each indivual case to be.
http://page.politicshome.com/uk/the_sleaze_meter.html
Some ratings may change, of course, Cameron (himself in the clear) has at least told his MPs to go meet the media and explain themselves, Gove and a few others have done so already. Pity Brown did not do the same thing but at least lets acknowledge that for once he has apologised (a bit late but lets not be too churlish).
I have just found this link to Gove and Duncan explaining themselves. I have to say I am unconvinced personally by Alan Duncan but I do think Michael Gove has been done a relative injustice (while not being totally innocent as he acknowledges).
http://playpolitical.typepad.com/uk_conservative/2009/05/alan-duncan-and-michael-gove-defend-themselves-against-charge-that-they-abused-allowances.htmlThe words Totally and Innocent do not sit well in this context. That so many are now outed as morally fraudulent simply indicates that there is more to come. It is not conceivable that, with such rich and ripe pickings, only a handful of very well known MPs took advantage. Please.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I am sure more will come out Bern and the list will lengthen somewhat. Clearly the media will focus on the better known high profile figures first but there is a fair old sprinkling of lesser known bods among them.
When you see a little known MP castigated for including some dog food (worth less than a fiver) among those listed it may well tell you than they are starting to scrape the barrel.
I myself suddenly had a thought when I read that one. I bought some sweets when I last went to a garage and filled my car up with diesel, so I checked to make sure I had knocked those sweets off my accounts when I entered the business expense on my spreadsheet!... It would have been an easy mistake to make, just as Gillams error. In my case I am sure my accountant would have spotted it if I didnt! The Commons authorities seem a lot less meticulous than my accountant, I must say!
And I think that sums it up nicely BarryW - the sums were not given the priority they needed because they were, frankly, not important enough. The taxpayer was unwittingly covering it already, so why bother to do the accounts properly? Besides, it kept the MPs happy and the wheels of the Civil Service ticking over undisturbed.
Sorry Barry but I will have to disagree on this one. A tin of dog food at less than a fiver is still a greedy, needless perk at my (a taxpayer) expense. If I want dog food I must pay for it out of my taxed wages. Why shouldn't they? If they do this minor little thing ten times that is suddenly fifty quid of tax money gone.
I am also disgusted at the number of MPs, totalling (according to your source) 45 out of 646. Don't under-estimate this - 45 MPs is a LOT of people joyriding a bonus system! Let's assume they all claimed a grand in a year - that's 45 grand! And this is me being very generous as I know many of them are claiming well into several thousands. How much of our money has been wasted on this utterly disgraceful, corrupt, greedy system which reduces the hard-working taxpayer to nothing more than a slave cash-whore.
These expense claims are, in many cases, worth far more than many normal people can earn a year including myself. I am taxed on the profits of my business and more often than not my yearly tax bill is far bigger than the actual wages I can earn for myself. To see my money being abused by these greedy scumbags who think they have some god-given right to it makes me sick to the stomach. I find tax bills painful - ALWAYS - but I work my nuts off to pay them properly and on time and the sense of injustice I feel is monumental.
Tonight I have been hearing about tennis court repairs, dog food, and light bulbs. No, the media are NOT scraping a barrel they are simply saying what they find. Light bulbs - do MPs really earn so little that they cannot afford to pay for their own light bulbs? Yeah right!
I can't remember a time when I felt SO angry about something. They say many people's faith in the system has been affected by this story - I would say my faith has been crippled and left lame.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i was extremely disappointed with the revelations on michael gove.
he is one of the few up and coming blue politician with new ideas.
the other bloke with the bouffant hair, nothing would surprise me there, ride on lawnmower indeed.
The public anger on this should not be underestimated. I sincerely hope it creates a real groundswell of motivation - it is long overdue. Apologies are not enough.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Rick - the dog food was not a perk it was a mistake, a small item part of a bigger bill. The kind of mistake I nearly made with a bag of sweets. It is easy to overlook a minor item in a bill. Just how many of us self-employed people, however honest, can categorically say that something like that has never been included as a write off in error.
Some transgressions are minor like this dog food one, others, like the £100 claimed to be for 25 electric bulbs are misrepesentations of the truth, other items represent, at best serious misconduct. Not all of the 45 even are crooks milking the system and that is not to excuse those that do.
Apologies and acknowledgment that wrong has been done is a start though Bern, the first and essential one needed to get reforms to the system.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
most of the apologies seem to have come from the party leaders.
from what i have observed of the alleged perpetrators, they are most indignant, stating the rules have not been broken.
they appear to be unaware of the contempt that we hold them in.
i was interested to read an article by a lib dem mp from north london, she was told about the expenses business soon after arriving in the commons.
she declined on the grounds that she could not think of a legitimate claim, living and working in london.
she was then accused of "rocking the boat" and made to feel an outsider.
the system is clearly rotten to the core, barry mentions 45 mps, i predict that figure will be a lot higher by the time this fiasco reaches a conclusion.
let us not forget the house of lords either.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
couple of other interesting points, today all TORY MP'S we paid for .lawnmowers, light bulbs, and yes you did hear right, one leading tory MP who put on his expenses claim a whopping £500 bill for a one night stay in a hotel!!
plus many many more tories caught up in this fiasco
interesting to note also the labour MP who lived up north but didnt claim for a second home!!!
Sid Pollitt
BarryW will probably let us know how those taking the cash for questions were victims of circumstance.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
It will be interesting to keep a count. Hopefully politicshome will keep up their sleezebuster survey so we can judge the extent of the problem.
Reading a few more blogs and thinking back I do wonder whether we are all getting a bit too self-rightous over all this.
For a short time when a teenager I worked for an electronics company and it was general knowledge among staff and management that those experienced trained employees who travelled from site to site claimed for 'digs' instead of mileage because it was higher, but drove into work every day, car sharing to save costs. The 'digs' allowance was a hell of a lot higher than the mileage allowance. I wonder if any of those people are among those who are outraged by what the MPs have done, its the same thing in essence.
I also wonder whether any of the journalists who are being so indignant have themselve taken their wife or mistress out for a meal and then claimed it as a business expense, eating with a 'source'.
How many people, working for an employer with the availability of an expense account have never at any time, 'massaged' their expenses. very few I would warrant.
How many self-employed have been careful about the expenses they declare. In a regulated industry I have to be careful what I do but I am sure I have made the odd mistake that hasnt been picked up. That said there are things I could claim for that I dont bother with (bottled water for the client coffee machine along with cream, milk and sugar for instance).
How many people in many different ooccupations have not declared their tips.
Where revenue are denied tax it remains a matter of public money in exactly the same way the abuses of Parliamentary expenses is public money.
I am not excusing the behaviour of our Parliamentarians. They should be setting an example and not have their snouts in the trough, I am just trying to place a slightly different perspective on things.
