PatrickS
- Location: Marine Parade, Dover
- Registered: 19 Sep 2015
- Posts: 448
Theresa May may be the most competent candidate to lead this Country but remember she supported the 'Remain' side (albeit with one eye on a BREXIT victory) and she had already changed her stance on withdrawing from the ECHR.
A very close eye needs to be kept on this Lady to ensure she follows through 100% on the Referendum outcome. No fudges and no second thoughts about BREXIT.
That said she appears to be the only competent runner left with any real credibility. Can she succeed in uniting the Tory Party and the Country post-Brexit?
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
This all goes to support the old saying that anyone who has what it takes to reach high office should never be trusted with it.
Ross Miller likes this
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Reginald Barrington
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,227
Typical Max Hastings drivel, a proven liar and charlatan who prostitutes himself to whoever can afford him and written for such a respected newspaper.
Arte et Marte
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Getting ridiculous now I suppose this will happen after the next General Election. Pundits rattle on about the demographics of the Referendum but the same applies at all elections. What doesn't help is this void where Article is not invoked and many people think it won't be.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-protest-march-30000-anti-saturday-2-july-anger-banners-leave-vote-central-a7115646.htmlBob Whysman
- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 1,932
Do nothing and nothing happens.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
My position on this would be to make British Citizenship much easier to obtain. No discrimination between applicants whether they are from Europe or Wherever. But no benefits until they achieve citizenship after, say 3 years good behaviour, and no residence initially without a job, a sponsor or proof of independent means. Genuine asylum seekers excepted under our international obligations. Any illegals to be repatriated without appeal.
Paul M likes this
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
PatrickS- Location: Marine Parade, Dover
- Registered: 19 Sep 2015
- Posts: 448
The present EU camp is split between those that want to stuff the UK at whatever price (President of the EU Commission included); those that want to ensure the future of a disintigrating Union, and those that realise the fragility of an ever controlling centralised federation hell bend on ensuring its own existence at the expense of national sovereignty.
Then there is UKIP, hell bent on eliminating the lot of them, and saving everyone a lot of money, currently going back and forth on the EU gravy train.
As for the UK - it has a mandate to exit the European Union, NOT exit Europe. The problem with BREXIT is that we have to negotiate with the EU, not with those Countries that make up the Union, who are unable to strike any kind of deal, political, financial, social or economical, on their own behalf whilst they are totally controlled by the bureaucrats in Brussels.
It follows that any Country currently within the EU would have to have the equivalent of a 'BREXIT' before they can talk directly with the UK in any of those areas, however keen they might be to have their own trade and financial deals with the UK.
The UK, in the meantime, has to rely on the present Government to implement the outcome of the Referendum. That means interepretation of what consititutes 'OUT'; how it is to be achieved and how long it will take after invoking Article 50. There is a 2 year limit on this process (only extended by the agreement of all EU member Countries) but silent on detail of the actual process. This leaves the UK with a mandate to exit but not how, as the EU could merely sit on their backsides and refuse to listen to any proposals proferred by the UK to secure exit terms. In reality, provided we get as far as invoking Article 50, there will be negotiations on our exit but these appear loaded in favour of the EU unless we have some very skilled and determined negotiators who understand not just the political implications for both sides, but the financial, economic and social repercussions for both the EU as a whole and its individual member states.
All this may well turn on whether individual Countries wish to continue to adhere to and support a centralised federalistic control over that process, or whether they, in turn, revolt and demand their own say.
Aristotle's saying that "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts" may not be as appropriate as it would seem. The parts in this case are required to gel together to make a cohesive whole - a greater bond in strength than the individual component parts. By no stretch of the imagination can that be said of the present make up of the EU. There are gaping differences, political, ecomonic and social between the northern and southern communities and within those communities themselves.
Without offering judgement on what is right or wrong it is purely a matter of fact that social needs, priorities and observances, differ greatly across the Union. Even more importantly is the need to protect self respect and self interest from outside interference. Perceptions of what these amount to differ greatly between communities, languages, religions and classes. If these are taken away by virtue of an annonymous heirachy sitting hundreds of miles away in another Country it become almost inevitable that disquient and dissent (or even revolt) will follow.
How this plays out is anybody's guess. It is now out of the hands of both you and I, left to the manderins of Whitehall and a Prime Minister that no one elected outside of Tory party members.
"Democracy must be built through open societies that share information. When there is information, there is enlightenment. When there is debate, there are solutions. When there is no sharing of power, no rule of law, no accountability, there is abuse, corruption, subjugation and indignation" Atifete Jahjaga
John Buckley and howard mcsweeney1 like this
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Bit of a tricky situation as it would be clearly wrong to deport EU nationals that have committed no offences but if we guarantee full rights then in the coming 2/3 years we could be inundated with people.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-refuses-to-rule-out-deportation-of-eu-nationals-living-in-uk-amid-fears-of-influx-of-a7117346.htmlRoss Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,695
Having had time to assimilate the result of the recent UK referendum on leaving the EU a number of thoughts have occurred to me.
It strikes me that there were numerous reasons for people choosing to vote leave, ranging from an understandable complaint that the EU is remote and distant and regulates without giving due credence to national concerns and preferences; through the belief that the EU edifice is undemocratic with the European Commission over reaching its remit, the EU Parliament having insufficient power to amend or reject laws and our own government doing too little to challenge these; or a concern that freedom of movement is over burdening the welfare state and eroding labour standards; to the comparatively small minority of nationalists and racists who see “taking back control” as a way of returning to the England of their reminiscences.
These concerns also need to be considered in conjunction with the wider crisis besetting the EU – the Eurozone/Club Med problems, the refugee crisis, issues with Russia in particular in Ukraine, terrorism and austerity measures. It is not unreasonable to assert that the EU has managed all of these poorly and that his has also compounded concerns in UK voter’s minds as to why they should be in the EU.
It also occurs to me that it is vital, given growing calls for similar referenda in Western Europe, that the EU takes a holistic view of itself and does not use this as another “Project Fear” moment or a chance to punish the UK, a nation the EU political elite have always felt were reluctant Europeans.
Therefore they need to come up with a “new deal” for Europe that includes the UK and its concerns, whether we ultimately stay in the EU or EEA club or not. This deal needs to address the key concerns of not just the UK but all EU member states and needs to consider what level of autonomy/integration is sensible and appropriate. It also needs to re-invigorate the social dimension of the EU much of which has been lost under the welter of directives related to the liberalisation and co-ordination of trade. It is for example worth thinking about why so many citizens from Eastern states have moved to the West; whilst wage disparity is the obvious driver, the lack of prospects and opportunity at home couples with low labour standards and minimal state provision probably plays a much larger role in encouraging the young and mobile to move.
Therefore any new deal has to think about how we encourage enhancement of the latter in the East whilst compensating the West for any additional burden on their state provision.
It is also vital that the whole EU political/policy edifice is overhauled to enshrine democracy at its core; the Council of Ministers needs to become a proper second chamber/senate, perhaps with members being elected by National Parliaments; the EU Parliament given greater powers so they actually make law rather than rubber stamping directives and finally turn the Commission back into a civil service with no power to make or recommend laws.
There are no easy answers; but it is important for all our prosperity and security that the EU finds solutions that address the problems and more pertinently the perceptions ordinary Europeans have of the EU; otherwise it will progressively disintegrate.
Guest 698 and howard mcsweeney1 like this
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
I think most of us would agree that the recent campaign was the most crass in living memory but on here some of the bests posts we have had, informative and measured and the broadsheets have not let us down either.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/dont-panic-britains-economy-can-survive-just-fine-outside-the-european-union-a7118736.htmlGuest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#512, good post Ross but our grandchildren will be drawing their pensions before the euro-elite accept any of the changes you would like to see.
Ross Miller and howard mcsweeney1 like this
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
This all gets a bit repetitive after a while, technically they are right in that the referendum was an advisory one but the Prime Minister gave his solemn word that the result would be binding and made no mention of a margin being required.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/in-full-the-letter-from-1000-lawyers-to-david-cameron-over-eu-referendum-brexit-legality-a7130226.html
